Comments on Five Chinese Crackers: David Starkey's not being racist, but...oh, wait a...

@ Cylux Should've made it clear that overall ...

2011-08-22T10:32:52.824+01:00

@ Cylux

Should've made it clear that overall i do consider Starkey's comments dodgy.

However i do think you can still pluck an issue he has raised out of his comments to discuss. I've heard similar issues to Starkey's before. However they have come from members of the Black community.

One could conclude that if you want a wide debate about a controversial issue that effects a minority group, put the words in a White persons mouth?

I can't believe some people actually came into...

2011-08-20T09:36:11.160+01:00

I can't believe some people actually came into the comments to even bother.
*shakes head in disbelief*

My personal favourites are those who try to make the claim that no, Starkey raised valid points that need exploring about gang culture etc, and perhaps we might have been able to explore those issues in regards to this piece, had Starkey not instead decided to focus on white people becoming black people when they commit crimes straight from the fucking start. There's little point in drinking from the well of debate once the first guy up to take a sip pisses in it instead.

Also, there's always been opportunistic looting and arson when riots happen so his 'shopping with violence' bollocks doesn't even rise to the level of historical observation.

That's Wacist!

2011-08-18T23:00:52.257+01:00

That's Wacist!

I'm not being racist, but Kate's comment w...

2011-08-16T14:33:24.041+01:00

I'm not being racist, but Kate's comment wins.

Starkey's comments are both clear and racism-f...

2011-08-16T12:09:20.397+01:00

Starkey's comments are both clear and racism-free.

Sadly, the parts which are clear are racist, and the parts which are racism-free are unclear.

@ taskermx: Since when has Tony Blair been a soci...

2011-08-16T10:04:13.410+01:00

@ taskermx:

Since when has Tony Blair been a socialist? *confused*

@Taskermx: Care to actually address any of the th...

2011-08-16T07:57:49.879+01:00

@Taskermx:

Care to actually address any of the things I actually say in the post and try to rebut them rather than blathering about socialists and Blair and Brown?

Seriously, what isn't racist is not defined as 'what taskermx and a lot of other people think'.

Ha..Only Socialists could twist what was said by S...

2011-08-16T02:16:57.526+01:00

Ha..Only Socialists could twist what was said by Starkey and Cry "Racism" It's as if they are trying to vindicate the Politically correct Society they have created under Blair and Brown but forgetting that allowing such a Society to flourish has consequences...I really feel for Starkey who just said things how he and countless others (including myself) see things..

I'm surprised Starkey didn't go on to say ...

2011-08-15T14:27:21.222+01:00

I'm surprised Starkey didn't go on to say that if you heard Tim Westwood on the radio, you'd think he was a twat^w^w black. Clearly it's all Westwood's fault, innit.

@Token Coloured Sorry - was a bit unclear there. ...

2011-08-15T12:46:32.347+01:00

@Token Coloured

Sorry - was a bit unclear there. What I meant was a rubbish issue what whether the music causes the behaviour.

Of course, the music is produced by the same environment that produces the behaviour. It's that environment that needs looking at.

"Is starkey a racist ? well from what I seen ...

2011-08-15T12:45:12.673+01:00

"Is starkey a racist ? well from what I seen on the video certainly not and I am not a racist either."

I wish someone prone to using the phrase "I'm not racist but..." would explain to me exactly what, in their view, constitutes being racist. In my mind, saying something racist would qualify, but apparently this is not sufficient. Apparently you can perfectly well say "bloody ethnics steal all the jobs and commit all crime", yet still maintain - at least in your own mind - that you're not racist. So I'd really like to know what they think is racist.

@Token Coloured Nice name. This is actually a bi...

2011-08-15T12:19:28.143+01:00

@Token Coloured

Nice name.

This is actually a bit of a rubbish issue to discuss and not that important. Grownups have worried about what kids listen to and what makes them oh-so-violent and rebellious for *years*. And by *years* I mean, *probably as long as humans have been on the planet*.

Still, I'm working on a separate post on it. That'll be up at some point today, probably later in the evening.

Great post FCC! as always. Amazed that people are ...

2011-08-15T12:19:05.972+01:00

Great post FCC! as always. Amazed that people are trying to say he wasn't being racist. But you say it all much better than i do.

thank you!

Anonymous, It would help if you read the OP. I t...

2011-08-15T12:16:47.853+01:00

Anonymous,

It would help if you read the OP. I talk about this there.

Starkey ACTUALLY said that 'elements' of b...

2011-08-15T11:31:03.251+01:00

Starkey ACTUALLY said that 'elements' of black culture, namely Jamaican Yardie, have been adopted and become the norm for disenfranchised urban youth, which is made up and attracted from all races. Inflammatory, yes. Racist, no. The perpetuation of successful blacks that sound white is rife in the media, particularly the BBC. Starkey, and Young echoed Revd Jackson's comments the last time in the UK, which was that UK Blacks are tax creditors, not tax burdens, but that self-belief and aspiration had been removed as a product of the neglect of the children of the diaspora.

Starkey raises an issue, rather clumsily, that doe...

2011-08-15T11:16:27.420+01:00

Starkey raises an issue, rather clumsily, that does need to be discussed. The negative influence of a culture that is tied to music particular musici.e. Hip Hop. That coincidentally is also tied to a particular ethnicity i.e. Black.

See this Dateline London at 12mins 28secs:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006m93g

As a Black person i believe that Starkey's clumsy point is an important issue that needs discussion. Statistically the Black community are victims of and perpetrators of the majority of gang related shootings. It's obvious that there are aspects of our culture that are messed up.

I would be interested to hear what sort of music the looters are into. 50 Cent or Morrissey?

Discuss!

I've only recently discovered this blog but I ...

2011-08-15T10:00:11.250+01:00

I've only recently discovered this blog but I love this post. Even if making Toby Young look like a complete halfwit is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel.

If Starkey had offered a critique on gangster culture he may well have had a point. However he didn't, he chose to offer a critique on the basis that "black culture" (whatever that is) is bad and "white culture" (again, whatever that is) is good. Rioters are bad and therefore black (or like black people); politicians are good and therefore white (or like white people). As you say the wonder is not that people are trying to say it's not racist, the wonder is why they're bothering. Unless they agree with the racist argument in which case they should be honest about embracing their racism.

I rarely read blogs but I was directed to this via...

2011-08-14T23:56:44.618+01:00

I rarely read blogs but I was directed to this via facebook; what a fantastic read! I'll be popping in more regular now. Keep up the good work!

It was racist because the position it comes from i...

2011-08-14T23:26:16.944+01:00

It was racist because the position it comes from is that cultural cross pollination is a bad thing. It's not. A lot of people are defending David Starkey but they're not all racist. Unfortunately if they followed Starkey's logic they'd have to stop listening to all popular music from the jazz age on.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dig&defid=1843366

Dig 14 up, 5 down
To comprehend or like something. Possibly coming from the Irish- An Dtuigeann tu? meaning, Do you understand.

If a black person says "Can you dig it?" does that mean THE BLACKS HAVE BECOME IRISH?

@vjohn82 - Thanks for liking it.

2011-08-14T22:41:45.376+01:00

@vjohn82 - Thanks for liking it.

Fantastic analysis and comment. I really enjoyed t...

2011-08-14T22:28:22.299+01:00

Fantastic analysis and comment. I really enjoyed the article. Thanks for posting it.

@Julaybib - feel free! If Young is forever connect...

2011-08-14T22:27:31.802+01:00

@Julaybib - feel free! If Young is forever connected in people's brains with the Gumbys, the world will be a better place.

Hooray! The guy who leaves my favourite racist com...

2011-08-14T22:13:15.718+01:00

Hooray! The guy who leaves my favourite racist comments is back! Hey, Nightwatchstate!

Inferior or Superior are subjective preferences so your definition is crap.

You're really not paying attention, are you? That's not my definition, it's Toby Young's, which he got from a dictionary. If you'd been paying attention, you'd see that I criticised it too.

If we remove that and shorten it to... then it effectively becomes racist to state that black people are black

Yeah, and if we add 'and that pizza is nice' to the end of it, then it effectively becomes racist to like pizza. It's fun, adding words and taking them away from dictionary definitions. Not really very useful, though.

...according to your definition, it is racist to claim that race existence.

Dude, it's not my definition.

QED, we have to use the second definition, that of "Prejudice."... your definition effectively says it is Racist to have feelings in response to reality.

Really, it's not my definition. It's a dictionary's. The dictionary Toby Young used.

You can bugger about with dictionary definitions of racism all you like. Maybe one day you'll change the definition until the word is defined in such a way that the things you say stop being racist.

Until then, cheers, you massive racist.

"the belief that all members of each race pos...

2011-08-14T21:25:56.681+01:00

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race , especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

Inferior or Superior are subjective preferences so your definition is crap.

If we remove that and shorten it to "the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race", then it effectively becomes racist to state that black people are black, because that's a quality specific to black people. Since race is a continuum with broad categorisations based on difference, according to your definition, it is racist to claim that race existence.

QED, we have to use the second definition, that of "Prejudice." Since it might be entirely reasonable to have a prejudice towards a collective of people who racially differ (The North Vs South Koreans, for example), your definition effectively says it is Racist to have feelings in response to reality.

"Racism" is a broken word and has now be...

2011-08-14T21:09:58.359+01:00

"Racism" is a broken word and has now been redefined as correctly observing reality.