Comments on Five Chinese Crackers: Should we be scared of black culture's influence o...

"However it did acknowledge how Hip Hop is a ...

2011-10-10T15:38:38.727+01:00

"However it did acknowledge how Hip Hop is a unique industry that not only includes music, but also includes fashion, slang etc."

Hardly unique, musical styles have always had a 'look' associated with them. Malcolm McClaren and Vivienne Westwood's involvement with the Sex Pistols is a notorious example, or the 'flapper girls' of the 1920s. Or Mods. And they've always had their own slang terms, some of which pass into general usage, while others remained obscure and impenetrable.

*Word verification - proles. How apropos

@ Patrick Neylan "One can argue that 'ra...

2011-08-22T11:16:33.733+01:00

@ Patrick Neylan

"One can argue that 'rap' culture seems to influence listeners to fully adopt the 'undesirable' lifestyle portrayed in the songs more than previous musical movements...."

Put very nicely. Only a week and a half ago a Channel 4 documentary called How Hip Hop Changed The World was on. In true Hip Hop fashion it was rather braggadocious. However it did acknowledge how Hip Hop is a unique industry that not only includes music, but also includes fashion, slang etc.

I would argue the 'dangerous' thing about Gansta Rap is that it is part of this unique industry.

Whilst there are examples of equally bad (that's bad meaning bad, not bad meaning good) lyricism from our White brothers, they are not usually part of a music genre that does exactly what it says on the can.

Is it possible that 'immature' minds might take Gansta Rap a wee bit too seriously? You listen to it, you talk it, you walk it, you wear it, you live it?

One of the scariest things i've seen in recent times was CCTV footage of a 'shoot out' in a car park in Nottingham (yes Blud, i'm from NG, y'get me).

The shooter held the gun just like Ganstaz do. We've all seen it. Hold the gun at a a 90 degree angle whilst firing.

Was holding the gun that way simply part of gang culture evolution? Or the influence of popular culture on gang culture?

Check out Apprentice 2007 winner Tim Campbell's comments on this issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6938249.stm

Run For Your Life was written by John Lennon who h...

2011-08-21T15:26:00.687+01:00

Run For Your Life was written by John Lennon who had a big problem about being jealous when he was younger. He treated his first wife and child pretty poorly but I don't think he actually hit them. I think he was getting over it as he matured a bit though. Jealous Guy is a great song.

Cracking song, Problem Child.

2011-08-21T12:24:48.502+01:00

Cracking song, Problem Child.

When I first came across Ephebiphobia (the fear of...

2011-08-17T14:39:08.854+01:00

When I first came across Ephebiphobia (the fear of youth) I thought it was slightly odd and funny as an idea. But as this post makes clear, older people have always had a big streak of fear of younger people. Right through history. They've always lamented the decline in behaviour, manners and standards since "their day" and blamed everything from that awful beat music to playing dice and even reading novels which were once held to be a very bad influence indeed on young women.

A few years ago the BBC did a brilliant series of documentaries called "Secret Britain" which demolished the idea, much cherished by Daily Mail readers, that there was once a golden age when everything was lovely. It should be repeated.

Run For Your Life, by The BEatles: Well I'd r...

2011-08-17T11:19:53.974+01:00

Run For Your Life, by The BEatles:

Well I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Well you know that I'm a wicked guy
And I was born with a jealous mind
And I can't spend my whole life
Trying just to make you toe the line

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

Let this be a sermon
I mean everything I've said
Baby, I'm determined
And I'd rather see you dead

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl

I'd rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or you won't know where I am

You better run for your life if you can, little girl
Hide your head in the sand little girl
Catch you with another man
That's the end'a little girl
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na
Na, na, na

Influenced by Elvis Presley's "Baby, Let's Play House". Exctract:

Now listen to me, baby
Try to understand.
I'd rather see you dead, little girl,
Than to be with another man.
Now baby,
Come back, baby gone.
Come back, baby gone.
Come back, baby, I wanna play house with you.

The Beatles song "run for your life" see...

2011-08-16T22:56:41.907+01:00

The Beatles song "run for your life" seem to be about violence towards women.

great post! i always find it interesting how peopl...

2011-08-16T16:03:46.136+01:00

great post!
i always find it interesting how people single out hip hop when it comes to sexist and homophobic lyrics. yes, they exist in hip hop (not all though) but it exists across the board. even short lived boy band V (like, a worse 5ive. yeah. imagine!) had a song about stalking a woman. The Beatles i'm sure had a song about hitting a woman? or am i wrong? and look at what Spinal Tap was satirising!
As you say, whatever 'the yoof' are listening to, adults would find a way to call it a bad influence. It's easy to blame a song. Harder to look at the causes of disenfranchisement in communities.

Just picking up on the "the white kids is tal...

2011-08-16T10:55:27.202+01:00

Just picking up on the "the white kids is talkin like black youth, innit" thing. This is patent nonsense, too. The white, black and asian kids are talking like, well, like 21st-century teenagers. I know plenty of black adults in their 40s and 50s, and whether they grew up in Britain, Africa or the Caribbean, none of them use anything like the language and accent that you can hear on the top deck of any London bus being used by kids of all colours.

The children who grew up in inner London in the 1960s and 70s didn't speak the "gaw blimey apples and pears" Cockney of their grandparents; they developed a slang and accent which grew into what's now described as Estuary English. That in turn is being replaced in urban London by an accent derived from the background of those urban Londoners. Not just Jamaican influences, but also that from urban USA, from the Indian subcontinent, and also from more traditional London. Even the infamous case of saying "innit" at the end of every sentence is derived from a similar construction in Hindi.

So not only was Starkey talking racist nonsense to imply that "white kids talk black, black people commit crime, so now the white kids are committing crime too". He was actually wrong that the white kids are talking black in the first place.

"A whole lame moral panic sprang from metal a...

2011-08-16T10:46:54.784+01:00

"A whole lame moral panic sprang from metal apparently advocating suicide in the 80s"

I loved what Ozzy Osbourne said when accused of advocating suicide.

"Why would I urge my fans to kill themselves? If they all did, who'd buy my next album?"

The accusations were particularly laughable in his case, because one look at the lyrics of Suicide Solution - instead of just the title - made it abundantly clear the song was in fact a warning against alcohol abuse, rather the promotion of any untowardness.

Thanks for moving the conversation on: whether Sta...

2011-08-16T10:29:59.133+01:00

Thanks for moving the conversation on: whether Starkey was racist is one thing; whether his points need addressing (within or outside the context of the riots) is another.

Music does influence the culture of those who listen to it, but only if it reflects something about that culture in the first place, or at least its aspirations.

One can argue that 'rap' culture seems to influence listeners to fully adopt the 'undesirable' lifestyle portrayed in the songs more than previous musical movements, and that the performers actually live those lifestyles (Bon Scott never threatened Lemmy with a flickknife, but guns certainly did for 2Pac and BIG). But I'd like to see some proper evidence for that before I believe it.

Good post, and I'm glad it didn't fall into the trap I thought it was going to.

Let's be clear for @Kier. The music I talk ...

2011-08-16T10:21:29.995+01:00

Let's be clear for @Kier.

The music I talk about in the OP apparently advocates serial murder. One particular track by the band in the video I've embedded there was actually blamed for inspiring a real life serial killer. And yes, it was dad rockers, AC/DC. Seriously, songs about battering people to death and dismembering corpses are ten a penny in metal.

Talking of 'Der Sturmer' type stuff, we're talking about songs accused of glorifying Joseph Mengele. And songs that called for lynching the pope.

A whole lame moral panic sprang from metal apparently advocating suicide in the 80s, and let's not even start on the Satanic Panic of the same decade.

Whatever music kids were listening to, and whatever the lyrics were about, I absolutely, double-dog guaran-damn-tee we'd be sitting here wringing our hands about how terrible it is and how its making our youth lawless and disrespectful and criminal.

And for contrast, here's some rap: http://www....

2011-08-16T08:59:31.991+01:00

And for contrast, here's some rap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygzSXn3oxKU

As an old punk and a Glaswegian who grew up embedd...

2011-08-16T08:58:26.599+01:00

As an old punk and a Glaswegian who grew up embedded in gang culture, the way in which race is being shoe-horned in to somehow "justify" the link between black culture and the riots is pitiful. The linkage of music to violence is decades old, if not centuries. You can talk about "Elton John advocating a Saturday-night palaver" as different from rap lyrics now but what if someone who is now acknowledged as a national treasure were to advocate, say, terrorism? Or have we forgotten about Joe Strummer's Brigate Rosse and RAF banners and t-shirts?

Music, like much literature, uses hyperbole as a means of expression. Yes there are plenty of detestable lyrics in a lot of music but that is not a uniquely black issue.

And with our PM on his high horse, let's not forget that he actually pretends his favourite song is Eton Rifles. And I don't remember that song provoking random groups of youths popping over to Eton for a bit of bother. Sadly.

@Keir: That's why I mentioned more than just ...

2011-08-16T07:51:28.009+01:00

@Keir:

That's why I mentioned more than just than one song. I'm rolling my eyes now.

Bit of a difference between music that advocates r...

2011-08-16T07:28:59.264+01:00

Bit of a difference between music that advocates rape, violence, criminal behaviour and Der Stuermer-type eradication of homosexuals, snitches and rivals and Elton John advocating a Saturday-night palaver.

applause If only the many 'advisors' th...

2011-08-16T00:41:59.160+01:00

*applause*

If only the many 'advisors' that the Government will likely hear from in the coming months had a scintilla of the sense and perspective shown in this post, we may make some progress.

Sadly, even if they do hear it, the politicians will ignore it in favour of jerking of knees and jumping of bandwagons.

Even more sadly, it will enable the media (specifically the tabloids) to attempt to regain the high ground with calls for 'tough justice' and 'reclaiming our streets', and move away from the 'inconvenient truth'(tm) that was being revealed about their own moral bankruptcy.

I can't deny that I find the sound of young middle class white people attempting to be 'street' by using patois (or whatever the correct term is, forgive my age...) seems fairly odd, but I would not for a second consider that a guidance to criminal behaviour, or to a 'black culture' any more than I would consider the Neanderthals from the EDL to represent 'white culture'.

Consumerism and the breakdown of 'society' (whatever that is) could be laid just as easily (if not more so) at the door of Thatcher and her ilk for putting the acquisition of wealth (by shareholders of private companies) above any need for responsible business behaviour or social justice.

p.s. For the hard of thinking, nothing I say above is condoning the committing of looting or arson by anybody, its possible to criticise behaviour whilst considering what factors may have brought about that behaviour and whether the responsibility for those factors is entirely one persons (see any parenting book since about 1960)

Comments on Five Chinese Crackers: Should we be scared of black culture's influence o...

"However it did acknowledge how Hip Hop is a ...

@ Patrick Neylan "One can argue that 'ra...

Run For Your Life was written by John Lennon who h...

Cracking song, Problem Child.

When I first came across Ephebiphobia (the fear of...

Run For Your Life, by The BEatles: Well I'd r...

The Beatles song "run for your life" see...

great post! i always find it interesting how peopl...

Just picking up on the "the white kids is tal...

"A whole lame moral panic sprang from metal a...

Thanks for moving the conversation on: whether Sta...

Let's be clear for @Kier. The music I talk ...

And for contrast, here's some rap: http://www....

As an old punk and a Glaswegian who grew up embedd...

@Keir: That's why I mentioned more than just ...

Bit of a difference between music that advocates r...

*applause* If only the many 'advisors' th...

applause If only the many 'advisors' th...